48. John Little on Caring for Gardens and Gardeners

JOHN LITTLE BIO

John Little has been reimagining what urban nature can be since founding the Grass Roof Company in 1998. Over the past 25+ years, John has designed and built more than 400 small green-roof structures and various other species-rich planting with walls engineered for nesting, hibernation, and year-round habitat.

His nonprofit Care Not Capital pushes for a fundamental shift to redirect funds from one-off capital projects toward ongoing, human-powered stewardship that benefits both biodiversity and communities.

Here are the core ideas John argues for—putting the best gardeners in the poorest places, moving money from capital into care, understanding that gardened places are best for biodiversity and people, moving novel landscapes higher up the Biodiversity Net Gain (BNG) metric, understanding that a modern public space gardener is much more than a horticulturist, keeping waste on site and using it to make places beautiful and biodiverse, and putting soil and plants on roofs.

You can connect with John on Instagram at @grassroofco and @carenotcapital and support Care Not Capital here.

SHOW NOTES WITH APPROXIMATE TIME STAMPS

  • (00:00) Introduction

  • (01:00) Early influences and growing up with a permaculturist grandfather and in post-industrial landscapes

  • (03:00) From retail to professional horticulture without formal training

  • (04:00) The shift from native plants to wildlife and habitat creation

  • (05:00) Green roof experimentation and breaking free from conventional substrate wisdom

  • (08:00) Topography as an underplayed design tool

  • (10:00) Effects of putting substrate on top of soil

  • (13:00) The art of seeing landscapes

  • (17:00) The importance of ruderal vegetation and hand weeding for biodiversity

  • (19:00) Care Not Capital and investing in gardeners instead of infrastructure

  • (22:00) Lessons from social housing and listening to residents over imposing ideas

  • (25:00) Free training for gardeners in community engagement, ecology, and green infrastructure

  • (28:00) Creating structural habitat with dry stone walls, cob buildings, and dead wood

  • (33:00) Redesigning horticulture education

  • (37:00) Valuing bare ground and the importance of entomologists in design

  • (40:00) Balancing ecology with aesthetics while making it beautiful for humans and wildlife

  • (44:00) Working in poorest communities and why green space investment matters most there

  • (49:00) Practical advice for home gardeners on working with subsoil and alternative substrates

  • (54:00) Managing lawns, dead trees, and organic debris for habitat

  • (58:00) Bee hotels and using gabions as multifunctional habitat structures

  • (64:00) Thoughts on bringing materials onto a site

  • (68:00) Recommended reading of Rebirding and Cornerstones Benedict Macdonald and understanding natural European habitats

  • (69:00) Thinking about climate change and succession in design

  • (71:00) How to propagate more gardeners by making them celebrities and funding good jobs

  • (73:00) You can connect with John on Instagram at @grassroofco and @carenotcapital and support Care Not Capital here.


KEEP GROWING

44. Kelly Holdbrooks on Southern Highlands Reserve

KELLY HOLDBROOKS BIO

With decades of experience in Western North Carolina’s vast horticulture, Kelly Holdbrooks demonstrates her passion for fostering human connection with nature in everything she does. For more than a decade as executive director of Southern Highlands Reserve, a nonprofit native plant garden and research center on Toxaway Mountain, Kelly has built a network of conservationists and advocates for preserving the unique ecosystem of the Southern Appalachian Mountains. Kelly’s research in experiential methods and the humanism of nature earned her a master’s degree in landscape architecture, with honors, from the College of Environment and Design at the University of Georgia. She also earned bachelor’s degrees in international studies and political science from Rhodes College and was a three-sport NCAA athlete. She is a founding member of the Southern Appalachian Spruce Restoration Initiative (SASRI), a public-private partnership working to restore the second most endangered ecosystem in the United States, the high elevation spruce-fir forests of the Southern Blue Ridge. She is a member of the Red Spruce Technical Advisory Board (RSTAB), headed by The Nature Conservancy, to make recommendations to the U.S. Forest Service for their regional planning efforts. She also participates in the quarterly All Lands Meeting held by the U.S. Forest Service to develop a long-term collaborative plan for natural resource conservation across Region 8. Kelly enjoys hiking, gardening, yoga, and playing in nature with her family. She is proud to call Western North Carolina her home.

You can learn more about Kelly and Southern Highlands Reserve by visiting their website and Instagram @southern_highlands_reserve.

SHOW NOTES

  • How Kelly's childhood in Tennessee and family garden experiences ignited her love for plants

  • Transitioning from a degree in political science to working in landscaping and pursuing landscape architecture

  • Choosing to work manual labor jobs in Asheville to gain hands-on horticultural experience

  • The importance of trusting your gut and following passion over societal expectations

  • A serendipitous encounter in a restaurant that led to discovering Southern Highlands Reserve

  • Driving up Toxaway Mountain for the first time and feeling an immediate connection to the site

  • The founding story of Southern Highlands Reserve by Robert and Betty Balentine and how land once slated for development became a conservation easement

  • Surveying the land to understand its ecological significance and formally establishing the Reserve

  • Protecting spray cliff waterfall communities that would’ve been lost to development

  • The significance of the endemic Rhododendron vaseyi (pink-shell azalea) population on the property

  • The small team and key staff members that help maintain and grow the Reserve’s mission

  • Projects focused on conserving plants of the Southern Blue Ridge and contributing to broader biodiversity goals

  • Collaborating on wetland restoration in Great Smoky Mountains National Park and successful native plant propagation

  • Partnering with Atlanta Botanical Garden to germinate Torreya taxifolia (Florida torreya) seeds using biochar, despite challenges with squirrels

  • Biochar’s surprising success in aiding seed germination and growth in experimental trials

  • Contributing to the Southern Appalachian Spruce Restoration Initiative (SASRI)

  • The red spruce restoration work and growing tall plugs for underplanting in deciduous forests

  • The unique relationship between flying squirrels and red spruce trees

  • Observing a truffle firsthand while working with biologists on spruce habitat

  • An overview of Kelly’s favorite parts of Southern Highlands Reserve

  • Highlighting the Wildflower Labyrinth and pond garden room as especially meaningful and ecologically rich

  • Advocating for careful observation of landscapes through different conditions as the foundation for conservation

  • The design approach of “don’t mess it up” and “polish the stone” guiding garden development

  • Gary Smith’s original design and support for adapting plantings in response to climate change

  • How conservation is gardening and really observing a space

  • Emphasizing the long-term nature of conservation and the importance of partnerships

  • Personal experience transforming a yard from exotic invasives to native biodiversity

  • The role home gardens and even green roofs can play in conservation efforts

  • Seeing dramatic increases in biodiversity in her own yard after going chemical-free for eight years

  • Explaining assisted migration as a response to climate change for isolated species

  • Reflecting on a 2013 biodiversity survey that showed greater diversity in cultivated garden areas than surrounding wild areas

  • How added water features and human care increased biodiversity in garden rooms

  • Finding inspiration from nature

  • Rebuilding after Hurricane Helene and observing its devastating effects on Western North Carolina

  • The emotional toll of the storm and the human response to come together and support one another

  • Partnering with US Forest Service to assess storm damage and plan targeted restoration efforts

  • Managing stormwater as a critical concern in mountain environments and beyond

  • Building a new greenhouse designed to increase red spruce production and improve visitor experience

  • Installing extensive green infrastructure like rain gardens, bogs, and French drains to manage runoff

  • The greenhouse project successfully withstanding Hurricane Helene's stormwater test

  • Gratitude to funders and volunteers who made the greenhouse and other efforts possible

  • Finding creative flow through hands-on gardening and spending time in the landscape

  • Favorite go-to books Wildflowers of Tennessee, the Ohio Valley, and the Southern Appalachians by Dennis Horn, Tavia Cathcart, Thomas Hemmerly, and David Duhl and Planting in a Post-Wild World by Thomas Rainer and Claudia West

  • Dispelling the myth that everyone has the capacity to have a green thumb with the right mindset

  • Excitement about a newly constructed mountain bog garden showcasing rare and endangered species

  • Thoughts on how artists and gardeners are deeply connected through slow, creative processes

  • How to propagate more gardeners and conservation by choosing connection, compassion, and curiosity over division

  • You can learn more about Kelly and Southern Highlands Reserve by visiting their website and Instagram @southern_highlands_reserve.